Monthly Archives: August 2025

Today's guest is Jon Peppers, Principal Software Engineer on the .NET MAUI team at Microsoft. Before building developer tools, Jonathan was a Xamarin MVP and the lead developer behind various cross-platform Maui apps. With a deep background in C#, from WPF-based self-checkout systems to home automation software featured on Extreme Home Makeover, Jonathan brings a wealth of experience in both app development and the frameworks that power them.

Topics of Discussion:

[1:59] Jonathan recounts his first job after college, working on C# for self-checkout software and migrating to WPF.

[4:40] How much on the continuum are we right now with Copilot agent mode?

[7:11] The process of setting up Maui development, including installing Visual Studio and the Maui workload.

[12:40] Using Copilot for multi-language debugging.

[18:42] Copilot's effectiveness in deleting unnecessary files and finding errors in string localization files.

[19:10] Copilot coding agent.

[21:20] The process of assigning issues to Copilot, which creates a branch, opens a pull request, and updates the description with its plan.

[27:36] The availability of different models in VS Code, including Claude and GPT, and the anticipation of new models being released.

[31:36] The potential for using LLMs on-device for privacy concerns, especially in healthcare.

[35:01] Jonathan encourages developers to try Copilot in their IDEs and explore its code completions and suggestions.

[35:17] Jonathan's Cat Swipe dating site!

Mentioned in this Episode:

Clear Measure Way

Architect Forum

Software Engineer Forum

How the .NET Maui Team uses GitHub Copilot for Productivity

Jonathan on LinkedIn

Jonathan Peppers

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Micah Martin is a co-founder, CEO, and Studio Director for Clean Coders. He's a 2nd-generation coder, serial entrepreneur, family man, pilot, airplane builder, engineer, author, and just a normal guy trying to enjoy life to the fullest.

He is also a co-author of Agile Principles, Patterns, and Practices in C#, along with his father, Robert C. Martin, also known as Uncle Bob, and a contributor to the popular testing framework FitNesse, among other things.

Topics of Discussion:

[1:52] Micah talks about early influences from his father, Uncle Bob, including childhood "robot" games and learning to code on a Commodore 64 and the first Macintosh.
[3:47] First job working alongside industry legends like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham, and the humbling realization that college hadn't prepared him to build real software.

[5:00] Founding Clean Coders to distribute training videos and later expanding into custom software development with Clean Coders Studio.
[6:54] Why apprenticeship is key to developing strong software engineers and how Pete McBreen's Software Craftsmanship influenced his approach.
[8:20] Parallels between martial arts training under a sensei and learning software from a master craftsman.
[11:23] How Clean Coders apprentices learn new languages like Clojure through Project Euler challenges and Koans, and why maintaining and extending code is essential training.
[15:13] The origins and purpose of FitNesse, acceptance testing, and the need for a modern replacement.
[18:43] The gap in tooling for non-programmers to write executable tests, and AI's potential role in bridging it.

[20:35] The role of bullet-point test scenarios in developer/customer collaboration.
[21:07] The decline of Agile's technical focus and the creation of the Software Craftsmanship Manifesto at a summit in Libertyville, IL.
[25:29] Carrying forward the Clean Code discipline in both training and client projects.
[27:11] Plans to offer a digital apprenticeship experience through CleanCoders.com.
[28:17] How Micah uses AI for algorithms, test data generation, and client projects, plus its current limitations.
[36:37] Lessons from aviation autopilot systems and why humans remain essential in software development.

Mentioned in this Episode:

Clear Measure Way

Architect Forum

Software Engineer Forum

Agile Principals, Patterns, and Practices in C#

Clean Coders

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Burke Holland is a Principal Developer Advocate at Microsoft who leads the Developer Tools Advocacy team. He's done so much in developer tools, like growing VS Code from 6M to 40M+ users. He's a frequent speaker at conferences like Microsoft Build, Ignite, GitHub Universe, QCon, and VS Code Day, which he helped create. He's led many product launches for GitHub Copilot, Codespaces, and more. He has a very popular YouTube channel talking about developer tech.

Topics of Discussion:

[3:33] Burke describes his transition from being a good developer to an evangelist, inspired by a Visual Studio evangelist he met.

[6:27] The rapid pace of change in the software development world compared to other industries.

[9:22] AI-driven development and the various modes available in VS Code, including ask mode, edit mode, and agent mode.

[15:41] Burke describes the current moment in AI developer tooling — no one really knows yet what the end product is supposed to be. Everyone agrees AI will help developers, but exactly how is still being figured out.

[16:39] What are the right questions to ask AI?

[17:41] The importance of providing the AI with the right context to ensure accurate and efficient development.

[25:05] AI's unpredictability makes it difficult to rely on it for consistent development tasks, which is frustrating and foreign to most developers.

[32:18] Burke explains that while local AI models can handle small, scoped tasks like generating a function's contents, they still fall far short of the performance needed for more complex jobs compared to models like GPT-4 or Claude.

[37:18] Co-Pilot's competition.

[38:23] Inspiration to people that as long as you are the software architect, you can do anything.

Mentioned in this Episode:

Clear Measure Way

Architect Forum

Software Engineer Forum

Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.

VS Code Day 2024

Youtube.com/@BurkeHolland/videos

Burkeholland.github.io/resume/

Build.microsoft.com/en-US/speakers/0e476452-35ca-4750-ac78-393c0d8c4cb3

Linkedin.com/in/burkeholland/

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Ted Neward currently labors on behalf of Capital One as a Senior Distinguished Engineer, leveraging his speaking, writing, and coding experience to bring a technology-focused and -sharpened mindset to the mortgage industry. During his more code-focused years, he specialized in high-scale enterprise systems, working with clients ranging in size from Fortune 500 corporations to small 10-person shops. He is an authority in Java and .NET technologies, particularly in the areas of Java/.NET integration (both in-process and via integration tools like Web services), programming languages of all forms, back-end enterprise software systems, and virtual machine/execution engine plumbing.

He is the author or co-author of several books, including Professional F# 2.0, Effective Enterprise Java, C# In a Nutshell, SSCLI Essentials, Server-Based Java Programming, and a contributor to several technology journals. All told, he has written well over a hundred articles in both print and online form.

Ted has also been an "insider" of one form or another with a variety of the technology providers of the world: an IBM Champion of Cloud, a Microsoft F# MVP (having also been an Architect and C# MVP in prior years), an F# Insider, C# Insider, VB Insider, INETA speaker, DevelopMentor instructor, PluralSight course author, and a member of various Java JSRs.

Topics of Discussion:

[2:44] Ted's career journey and what keeps him motivated in the industry.

[4:16] Why Ted believes the industry is overdue for a new mainstream programming language.

[8:12] The evolution of case tools, UML, and why generating code has never been the real problem.

[15:14] The challenge of keeping architecture simple versus embracing complexity.

[22:33] The role of philosophy in software development.

[38:01] Lessons from calculators, fundamentals, and why developers must still master core skills.

[38:46] The impact of AI on productivity and job roles.

[43:25] The Importance of Domain-Specific Languages (DSLs).

[56:26] Ted and Jeffrey talk about a recent article in The Economist, "Jane Street's sneaky retention tactic".

[1:01:54] The importance of writing as a tool for developers to structure their thoughts and improve communication.

[1:04:02] A few of the upcoming places and events that you can catch Ted speaking live!

Mentioned in this Episode:

Clear Measure Way

Architect Forum

Software Engineer Forum

Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.

Ted Neward LinkedIn

Visual Studio Live!

KCDC

Voxxed Days, Crete

Build Stuff

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